SPEAKER_04: 0:15

We're fine women, fine literature, and find my basement live.

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Step into the lit light. Black girls lit star.

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Black women are so complex.

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Hey y'all, I'm Natasha. I'm Lex. I'm Steph. I'm Star. Welcome back to Black Girls Lit Podcast. We are excited to be back with another book, some drinks, and of course, some great conversation. This month, we are diving into an American marriage in honor of our lovely bride. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02: 0:50

We're gonna be married by the time the episode comes out.

SPEAKER_04: 0:53

I think it actually comes out on your wedding day, right? Does it? It does. And it's the first Friday, yeah. So you know, we are going to be um honoring her with our black girl cocktail of the month. This right, I think it was inspired. I think one of our other episodes, Lex told us about this combination, and Star and I were both like, huh? Y'all ate me up.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15

Y'all ate me up for sure.

SPEAKER_04: 1:17

It's it's a drink, it's a thing, people are doing it. So, you know, we're gonna take back a little bit of our judgment.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22

Go ahead and tell the people what we're drinking, Lex. All right. So, as always, I'm bringing you all the BGL cocktail of the week. Today we have the calimocho cocktail. As Tasha said, they ate me up for saying that red wine goes with Coke. But according to this cocktail, it in fact does. So there you go. Um, so today our alcohol of choice we'll be drinking is red wine. So the wine we put in this cocktail is the Rioja wine, red wine, Coca-Cola, and some lemon. So, ladies, cheers. Cheers, honestly, yeah. I would have put a little more coke in it, but yeah. It's giving singry to me.

SPEAKER_03: 2:10

It's like a dry sea. I mean it's actually not bad. I told y'all, you know, it's just not something that you'd be like, oh, let's try that.

SPEAKER_05: 2:18

If you're not a red wine drinker, it will help you ease into it for sure. Because it sweetens it up. Yes, yeah. And if you don't if you haven't developed a palette for red wine, they just called me immature, but it's okay. I don't think, I don't think we said, I don't think we said that you were immature. I just think we were trying to understand. Why? Why would you do that? Why would you put colour in red wine? But calimocho. I'm not mad at it. You know what?

SPEAKER_03: 2:45

It might help the wines that I don't like because there was one at home. I might have to go home and try that. Add a little coke. It might change it up for me.

SPEAKER_02: 2:54

I'm not mad at it. Make a calimocho cocktail. Mm-hmm. We don't yuck yums in here.

SPEAKER_03: 3:01

So let's get into the book, The American Marriage, in regards to the author and what it's about. The American Marriage was a 2018 Oprah's book club selection and won the 2019 Women's Prize for Fiction. The novel set between Atlanta and Louisiana follows Celestial and Roy, young, black, and newly married, whose lives are torn apart when Roy is wrongfully incarcerated. The author, Tayari Jones, is a writer and a professor born and raised here in Atlanta, Georgia. She received her undergraduate degree from Spelman University and advanced degrees from Iowa and Arizona. She is currently a professor at Emory and it has four published books.

SPEAKER_04: 3:47

All right. We love an Atlanta girl. Okay, y'all. Let's go ahead. Now we know that Oprah recommended it, and this book is highly rated on several different sites. So let's go ahead and see what the Black Girls Litch thought about it. You know. Y'all know we do. It's either cheers, sip, babysit, or send it back. I'm gonna go ahead and say, Tasha left with this one. It's a cheers for me. Cheers. I love it.

SPEAKER_05: 4:15

Oh my god. Cheers. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02: 4:19

Yeah. Well, what about you, Lex? I'm gonna do a cent on this one. It was it was.

SPEAKER_05: 4:28

It was.

SPEAKER_02: 4:30

It was well written.

SPEAKER_05: 4:32

It was most definitely well written.

SPEAKER_02: 4:33

I think more so the storyline is why I'm giving it a sent. It was a lot, but it was a very mature. We'll get into it. But I did enjoy it. Like, I'll probably add it to my personal library. Like I did enjoy the book.

SPEAKER_03: 4:50

Well, good for you. I'm happy that you would put it. I I don't know if I could put it in my or in your personal library. Yeah, so I'm I'm gonna give her a 2.5. Okay. Okay. So writing style, I can give it more of a sip, but storyline, 2.5 for Steph. But we'll get into it as they say. I'm torn.

SPEAKER_05: 5:12

Um I'm torn. I'm going to go with sip. The reason I'm going with sip is because it wasn't quite a babysit because I was able to get through it, but it's a sip because girl. Like, girl. That's a lot. But we gonna get into it. I just yeah. So let's show you. The topic was a lot though.

SPEAKER_04: 5:35

So we okay, we we go, we might dive in. We might get let's go ahead and dive in. Go ahead. And what's what let's start off with the parents and these questions because the conversations have to be had.

SPEAKER_03: 5:46

They do. Okay. They really do. For sure.

SPEAKER_05: 5:52

Okay, so the first pairing that we have is the Black Girl Magic red wine. It's the red blend, and then we're pairing that with the barbecue meatballs. And it says this red blend has hearty and bold flavors with rich notes that complement classic barbecue flavors. So that's what the pairing is giving. We're gonna get right in with the question. The first question is would you have waited for Roy? That's the first question. So we just gonna jump right in and gone on down through that.

SPEAKER_02: 6:26

Now, do we want to give the people kind of without giving too much?

SPEAKER_05: 6:30

Well, we well Steph did. She said that they were like all in love, right? And then he was falsely accused of something and he was incarcerated.

SPEAKER_02: 6:40

They were married a year, right? Yes, Roy was sentenced to 12 years. He was sentenced to 12 years. So I think that's something that our listeners should know. Sentenced to 12 did not serve 12 years old. He served five. Served five. And they were married for a year and a half before about 18 months. Yes. Going into it. So just to set that stage.

SPEAKER_04: 7:02

Okay, so we're newlyweds. You get falsely accused. You've been given 12 years. Now, mind you, Kate's not, it's not even just that it's 12 years. These are your like your your most pivotal years. I mean, you know, we're young 30, so we're getting ready to try and talk talking about kids, building our careers. So it is a very pivotal time in life. And so I don't know if it's just as easy as, well, do you wait? I feel like I would wait for Alvin Salter. I would say that. So even so under all the circumstances, because I would just stay in the mindset that I know he's innocent and I got the people working on him. I'm not gonna stop trying to get him out. Now, realistically, knowing our justice system the way it is, I do know that's gonna take some time, but I think I would just stay and keep the faith. And knowing it's gonna be hard, I would do my very best to wait because I know he was innocent. Now, if I if it was, if I wasn't sure, then I'd be like, hey, woo, mm, that'd be different. But if I knew for a fact that he was innocent, I would just be like, hey, we in this fight together. Let's let's make it happen.

SPEAKER_05: 8:10

So let me ask a clarifying question before we before we're going on down through there. This is given the 12-year sentence, right? Because at the time she didn't know, right? Like she didn't know how long he was actually going to have to serve and what the what the outcome was gonna be. So yeah, keep the faith, but we're talking about 12-year sentence. Are you waiting? Right? That's the context that we're answering this question from, right? Not that we know he only ended up serving five. Correct. Okay, I just want to make sure.

SPEAKER_04: 8:42

So the context is I would keep the five is a realistically, I no, Steph said no.

SPEAKER_03: 8:50

Okay, so Steph's gonna say no. I get for me reading the of course, knowing my personal life and where I am in life, the person that I have in my life, the answer would be I would wait. Like he said, you have a Alvin, I have a Jeff, we know what we have. But going to the characters in the book, they weren't very cohesive. They had some cracks within their foundation where I didn't feel like they had a solid ground for me to say wholeheartedly, yes, I will wait for you.

SPEAKER_02: 9:24

They did have a very complicated relationship, like extremely complicated. But I think the same as y'all. Like, I would wait. If it was Antron, I would definitely wait, especially if I knew he didn't do anything. Now, if he if he did it, ooh, sorry. No. But yeah, I think I would like to think that I would wait and I would, I would have probably relocated because we know that they he ended up getting arrested in Louisiana, but they were living in Atlanta during the time. So yeah, I would have held it down for sure. But knowing their relationship, like you said, I think they should not have stayed together, um, given their their history. But if it were me and my partner, yeah, I would have.

SPEAKER_05: 10:12

So I guess I'm in a unbiased place because I don't, there is no, like, if, oh yeah, like my person right now, like, yes, I would. There is no my person right now. So the answer is no. However, it does beg the question for me. Because when you when you do decide to get married, right, and you do take those vows, you are committing to just that. Like six months down the road, nine months down the road, you've made a commitment. Like, no, I'm rocking with this person. What the vow say? Sickness and hell, sickness and hell, richer, poorer, and all the things, right? So I think it for me, it just kept begging the question like people want the wedding, but people don't really want to be married. Because the marriage part, like, that's the commitment part. And like for me, it's a no. I don't even 18 months in, I don't even really know you like that. But the thing is, so it's never so that's what I'm saying. Like, for me, the question doesn't start there. The question starts, is this really someone that I want to marry? And I think that is the thing that gets taken a lot, that gets taken lightly in this day and age, possibly, is the actual, like everybody wants to, you know, do the thing and have the party and spend the money and take the pictures to post on social media. But like after the wedding's over, you gotta go home and you gotta have a life with this person. Like you have to dedicate yourself to that. But she did.

SPEAKER_04: 11:43

She said yes. So she's gonna be able to do that. She was supposed to be, she went. So if you're supposed to be all in, now again, understanding that it's not gonna be easy. You're giving up the life that you pictured, hey, the birthday parties, the kids, like you really again, those that 12 years, that's when all of that stuff is meant to be happening. So you're gonna be like in your 40s by the time, and life is different. I mean, at that point. But it I look at it the same way as if, like you said, you when you say I do, you're signing up for life. You don't know exactly what life is ever going to throw at you. So whether life is an unfair prison sentence, whether it is health issues, whatever it is, the life that you think that you're signing up for may not be what you get. What you get. So are you here? Are you here for the ride or no? So when I said I do, that meant I was I was here for the ride, whatever, whatever it was going to be.

SPEAKER_00: 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:36

And I will say I polled the people of Instagram when I was reading the book. And everybody said they would not wait. Like Yeah. I will say that. Yeah. But I also and not want to say I think a majority of people who said no were also single. So I also do think that like where you're at in your life, absolutely like definitely plays a role into how you would answer that question. But I agree with you, Tasha, though, because she she said I do, and she said and she committed herself. And I think the thing that just made me sick was literally this man got locked up for just being a black man.

SPEAKER_05: 13:13

Just being a black man.

SPEAKER_02: 13:14

Just being a black man, wrong place, wrong time. And even that, we can argue if it was a big thing. Not even really wrong. Like he was literally just locked up because he was black. And had he not been helpful to her, she wouldn't have even wrecked, like, she wouldn't have even known. And that that's what really made me sick. Where it's like, no, you have an obligation to hold your husband down. Cause like you you were that like you were the one alibi that he had, like you knew.

SPEAKER_03: 13:42

And so just knowing that he was done wrong by the system, and she still she tried though, but like we do have to give her that she did try because at the end of the day, she still had to live her life. She can't put your life on hold because I still have to provide for you now at this point because you are incarcerated and you need money in order for you to get money. I have to work. So she had to go back and do things and you're still continuing your your life. So I agree. Would have I stayed? I think I would have tried definitely in the beginning, but over time, it's one of those things where he's several hours away. Your life is in one state and the jail is in another state. How do you make that happen where you could still be there for the person? You know, when you have a person that is sick, it's a little different because you could go, the hospital is right there, you're there with them, you're caring for them. But when you're incarcerated, depending on where you're gonna be, yes, you would have to uproot your life to the middle of nowhere. Are you able to do that? Do you work from home? Do you have to go into the office? She did have a business that she was getting up off the ground, and so that takes away from it. So it's a lot to take into account. I think she tried. She did try. I feel like I would try. I can't say that I would have done the whole 12. And once we said you said stated she's in her 30s, they're in their 30s. Do you want children? How is this life gonna happen? Do you stay with this person and see what can happen? Do you freeze your eggs? You change, I change. Like it's a lot thought process because, like, when you go in there, you don't know what's happening to him. And of course, we found out some of the things that happened and it changed his demeanor. Like he had to become a little more aggressive because when you're behind bars, people are coming at you all kinds of ways.

SPEAKER_02: 15:30

For sure. I think that's also another issue I had because it's like, okay, girl, if you truly feel like you gave it your all the good college try, whatever, did you have to choose the person that you chose? That was that was trifling as hell too.

SPEAKER_00: 15:48

That was super trifling.

SPEAKER_02: 15:49

Like out of all the people that you could have had another life with or attempted to have another life with, you gonna choose your man's best friend.

SPEAKER_03: 15:57

It wasn't even her man's best friend, that's her best friend.

SPEAKER_05: 16:00

That's okay, so okay. That they're not even let's so let's go in here. So that's kind of like it kind of leads us to the next question. Is that me? Yes, Lex, go ahead and um introduce the second pairing, and then that'll lead us into this discussion on celestial and everybody and her choice. Everybody, everybody gets it. I don't care what nobody said. I think I started texting when I got to I said, uh-uh. I don't, I don't can't do that. I don't fool her.

SPEAKER_02: 16:29

But also, Roy was very trifling, very fucking ghetto. Like, like not, they were both trifling and ghetto for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 16:40

And that's why I said I don't even know why they got married.

SPEAKER_02: 16:42

Right. But that's why things are complicated. That's what I learned from this book. Life and people are complicated, anyways. Going into pairing two. We have the apothic red wine with aged cheeses. So, y'all definitely seen this wine in like Kroger, it's very like accessible. We should be getting the rich bold fruit flavors of the wine with notes of berry, vanilla, and mocha, and that should be a good match for your cheese. So I'm reading it as you should get a little charcuterie board in your mouth as you are trying this pairing.

SPEAKER_04: 17:22

So I do definitely taste the berries in this wine display. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_05: 17:27

The cheeses we have gouda, I think we have gouda medium cheddar, uh aged white cheddar. They're all aged. Promise.

SPEAKER_03: 17:36

Verified. The aging was verified. I like the wine.

SPEAKER_02: 17:41

I do like the wine. I always overlook this wine in the store too. I've never picked it up.

SPEAKER_05: 17:46

I do too.

SPEAKER_02: 17:46

Now I may pick it up.

SPEAKER_04: 17:47

It's actually you know what's weird. I think that like my palette really must be changing because I was I think this may have been one of the first red wines I tasted, and I was like, mm-mm, I can't do it, like it's too dry. Now I'm kind of like, it's almost sweet.

SPEAKER_05: 17:59

Like, okay, but you can I can definitely taste the sweetness of it.

SPEAKER_02: 18:04

The berry for sure. That's cute. That's a good one. Okay, so the question Celestial, our favorite person. Okay, so Celestial's choices are often polarizing. Did you empathize with her or did you feel conflicted? What to say, y'all?

SPEAKER_04: 18:25

Okay, let me say about Celestial. I did not really love her. I would not say that she really tried to stand with him, whatever this and that, because she did have a business where she could have moved it to Louisiana, made the made it a little bit easier. It was up and coming. Yeah, you know, she she definitely could have done that. I think I don't necessarily empathize with her because I felt she came out to me very much as a person that just sort of lets life happen to them almost. Even like the relationship she ended up with with um, what's the best friend name? Andre. With Andre. It's even I thought I'm not even convinced that she was really in love with him. It's just sort of like, well, well, he's here. And I feel like she put up with a lot of stuff from Roy. Like she accepted a lot of stuff. She was even willing, about to be like, okay, well, this is my fate. I'm just gonna be in this marriage. I don't just, I don't really love her. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_05: 19:15

I do not fuck with so. Tell us how you really think. Um by no means, no stretch of the imagination. I do not empathize with her. She came across to me like very, definitely, I feel what you're saying. Like, almost woe is me, damsel in distress. Like, but what about me? She's a spoke of yes. Like, what about my life? And what about I think it got to a point where she was more concerned about what other people were gonna think and how it was gonna come off.

SPEAKER_02: 19:50

Perception.

SPEAKER_05: 19:51

Versus, but your husband, this black man, was falsely accused. Like, and you're concerned about how people. Look at you when you I can't have a husband that's in jail. Like, girl, what?

SPEAKER_03: 20:04

I mean, she didn't mention him, she didn't mention him in anything when she started getting her dad.

SPEAKER_02: 20:10

Her dad was like, the fact that her dad cussed her out.

SPEAKER_05: 20:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

If your daddy cussed you out, that's right. I can't support this.

SPEAKER_05: 20:19

And was the dad the same one that told Dre, like, oh, you know you got ass whooping coming. Yeah. Is it that it was her dad, right? It was whose dad. That was Dre's dad. It was Dre's dad. Yeah, Dre's dad even told him, like, oh, now when he, now when he beat your ass, you gotta take that. Because you got that coming. Like, no, but no, I do not empathize with that.

SPEAKER_03: 20:39

I do not empathize with her at all.

SPEAKER_05: 20:41

And again, you took those vows. Like, you took those vows. So she's the main, like, main type of person. It's like, girl, did you really love him? Did you really, were you really in it for the long haul? Because, like you said, we don't know. We don't know the future. Like, we can hope for the best and we know what we want our situation, our life to be, right? But you don't know. Like I said, she's just very weak to be. I don't, I don't, I don't think they should have gotten married.

SPEAKER_02: 21:06

So she, I also feel like, because I do want us to talk a little bit about Roy and his behaviors too. Yes. Because it's not like, and I don't think any of us are saying this, but Roy was far from perfect as well. She had a wandering eye. He was a cheater. He cheated, he got folks' numbers. Like, and I don't know if it was, I couldn't necessarily pinpoint like which time period she was writing, like the author was writing in. But it almost seemed like Celestial also had that mentality of like, okay, well, we're married, so I'ma stick beside him no matter what he we're here now. So yeah, you're gonna get this number. I may ask a couple questions, but like I'm not going nowhere. If she was going to leave, she should have left when he was cheating on her instead of doing what she did now. It was very strange.

SPEAKER_04: 22:00

And that's why I said I felt like she was, I say weak, only because she just did not make a lot of choices for herself. Like even I think about like the whole thing with the baby doll, like that she knew took like months and months to make, when the boy's mama was like, Oh, I really like it, you can have it. Even though she knew that that's something for the mayor. A$10,000 doll that's for her business, like, sis, that's not even a smart move. Like, what are you talking about? Like, she wants it, so I'm gonna give it to her. Like, so they don't even like his mama.

SPEAKER_03: 22:30

Because, but she was she was seeking that's the thing she was making her validation from the mother, so that's why she was gonna give it to her. If it was anybody else, I don't think she would have done it, but because it was the mother and she wanted that validation, that's the reason why she was just like, no, you could have it, you could have it. But my thing with them is I felt like they should have never gotten married. She should have always been with Dre. The thing is, what she does in detail in the book is whenever she was with somebody, it was the double standard is I'm with somebody and you're bringing them in my presence and I'm supposed to accept them. But when Andre brought somebody around, oh, she's a young girl, and how could and I look so old and I feel so old, like you found all the negatives about you, but was Andre happy? Is it about you or is it about Andre finding somebody? And the thing is, they had a moment in high school when they went to prom. What happened afterwards? You said you don't want to talk about it, so y'all never talked about it, and so y'all move on from it, but you had this close relationship. So I feel like this is where I get on the the babysit portion of it because there wasn't a a little enough detail. Andre and Celestial for her to choose at. Like, I don't think she should have ever been with Roy to keep it a buck. So you think like Andre was like her soulmate? I feel like they were, and I feel like she didn't want him. I feel like what happened in high school, she said, let's not talk about it because she didn't want to lose the friendship because they've been together for so long. And if they got into a romantic relationship and it didn't go right, their families would be split apart, etc. etc. And then when Roy came into the I think Roy gave her a challenge. So it's one of those things people say, people are like, Love shouldn't be easy. Why? Why can't love be easy? A lot of other stuff is hard enough. And I feel like my love is easier now, but I'm not gonna say it was always easy. But even if you're like, if you mesh with something, it mesh with someone or it works out, or you guys just gel, it's like, why is that a bad thing? Because that's what happened with her and Andre, where with her and Rory, it was always a battle. It was always opinionated, it oh, it was always something. And then it always made you question, which is not a bad thing. It's just what do you want? That's where I give it the babysit more because it was like there was no elaboration with certain parts of the characters. And I could feel like because Andre got, I feel like he's getting a bad take on everything because he's loved her his whole life, and she told her, I would have been moved on. I would have been moved on if I was Andre, she ain't giving you what you want. It's time to go. But people get caught up and want to stay where Celestial had it, she wanted her cake and she wanted to have her cake and eat it too. And that's the end of it with them, too.

SPEAKER_05: 25:12

There was something that for me was never really clear. And I even hearing you guys now, it's still not clear to me that Dre and Celestial were best friends. I don't know if I missed that or if that was implied or something, but I didn't get that. So did Roy and Dre not grow up together at all? No, Celestial matter because they grew up together. They grew up together like next door Cisile. I knew that Dre and I knew that Dre and Celestial like basically grew up next door to each other, right? Because he had his house even at the end. It was like, I'm while you figure this out, I'm going home, which was like next door. But what I didn't understand was if they where this relationship came with then Roy and Dre, if they had only been married for a year and a half, then Roy and Dre couldn't have developed this like hella relationship. They were in the college.

SPEAKER_02: 26:13

Yeah, Dre and Roy, they were roommates.

SPEAKER_03: 26:16

They were no neighbors because because I think he could hear him in the other room.

SPEAKER_02: 26:20

And so when he was Oh, I thought they lived together.

SPEAKER_03: 26:22

No, he came over to get something from him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:25

Oh, okay. They were neighbors. Oh, but they got it because they were on together. And so then he met Celestial that night. That Celestial was over at Andre's dorm, and then Dre came over to ask, and then that's when they met, but then they never got together until I think they said like years later. Okay. They had still the boys had still been friends. That's what I'm saying. I don't know if they were still.

SPEAKER_03: 26:51

I don't know if they were, I think they were friends, but I don't think they stayed in touch. And then when Roy saw her in New York and they got together, that's when Roy, I think, re-entered Andre's life. And because Andre and Celestia were so close.

SPEAKER_05: 27:04

And see, it was that was kind of a disconnect for me. So that's why I was kind of like, What's like what's happening right here? Because it begs the question, who who was actually being disloyal? Is what for me where it was confused. And then when all the parents got involved and all the parents were like, Y'all are wrong. Like Celestial and Andre, they're like, nobody was like, oh yeah, we understand. Everybody was like, you guys are wrong. No, it was just the dad. The dad. It was just dad. It was both dads. Yeah, both. It was both dads.

SPEAKER_02: 27:36

On the accounts of she was a married woman. I think that's where they were saying, like, she's wrong because they never got a divorce. No, I think the dads were mad.

SPEAKER_04: 27:46

They were mad like that shit supposed to be your boy. Like, no, I think they were mad because they knew what it, they were coming from it like, here goes the system taking out another black man and she not finna stand by him. I think that's the way they were coming at it. Like, because they were feeling, they were like, I felt the way her dad was, like, it the way it was him, it that could have been me. Like, you know, it's so easy as a black man to wind up in that situation. And now, look, hit this what you're doing, daughter? This, like, you can't be here for him. Like, you're not his backbone. He's in here locked up, wrongfully accused, and you out here sleeping around with this boy next door. If you want the boy next door, why you ain't to have him in high school?

SPEAKER_05: 28:27

Like, come on now.

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

That's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_05: 28:29

It was like the lack of commitment to the vows that you took. So the part that confused me the most was the mother. Like when the mother passed and Roy axed Dre, like that was where I was like, are y'all really that cool like that? Like, and that's where their relationship, that's why I got confused with the relationship. Because I was like, up until that point, I thought that him and Celestial were best friends. So I was like, well, why would he ask him to carry the case in for him like that in that way? I didn't think that their relationship was that.

SPEAKER_02: 29:04

What was Andre's occupation? Because wasn't Andre also helping with the case, though?

SPEAKER_03: 29:09

Cybersecurity. I think he was like IT or something.

SPEAKER_02: 29:11

No, yeah, he wasn't helping with the case. So who on the on their uncle? The uncle.

SPEAKER_03: 29:16

Celestial's uncle.

SPEAKER_05: 29:17

Celestial's uncle. Oh, okay, okay. That was the part that confused me. And I was like, it was almost as if they were trying, like, she was trying to force this deeper relationship with Roy and Dre to add in the complexity of the love triangle. Like, you know what I mean? Kind of ultimately.

SPEAKER_03: 29:36

I could see it, but I think Andre did it because they were lifelong friends, and this is her husband now. So he embraced him as a brother because that's who she was going to be with. I feel like a lot of it was more support for Celestial than it was for Roy. Possibly.

SPEAKER_02: 29:51

On Andre's side. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 29:54

Yeah. Are we ready to move on to the third pairing? Here we are. So we're going to do real hot with paella. I hope I got that right. You did. That was beautiful. It's like you took Spanish. Like for several years ago. I'ma take it. Well, no, Lex had a complicated one for the cocktail. And Lex says words are hard. Words are hard. They are. So with this, we're going to pair it with the wine. The earthy, savory, and rich flavors of a mead-based baea are beautifully complemented by the red fruit spice and vanilla notes of the red Rioja, particularly one made from Tempero. Don't make me say that again.

SPEAKER_05: 30:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_03: 30:37

Thanks.

SPEAKER_05: 30:38

It's a tight end. I would be right. That's what they said at the winery. Okay. I say it just like that.

SPEAKER_04: 30:42

I do like this one. I think this is probably like the boldest of the ones we've had today. Are all of these red blends? No.

SPEAKER_02: 30:48

They're not all red blends. So the black girls. Those two are. I do believe those. This is not. This is not. This is not.

SPEAKER_03: 30:55

I like it. This is red. This is all red.

SPEAKER_05: 30:58

This one's my favorite. I was like, I like this one. It's dry. This one's my favorite. It's really dry. For those that don't know, because I did not know, why don't we tell the people what paella is? Because everybody doesn't know what paella is.

SPEAKER_04: 31:11

Oh, it's like a Spanish rice, and it has like, you can make it either like with make it with chicken is more like chicken and rice. Like, what is it? Pollock hoop? Oh, yeah. But um, a lot of times traditionally it's like with that saffron rice and then all types of seafood. So mussels, shrimp, actual fish, and calamari. All simmered down. It takes like a while like to simmer it all down together, but um, yes, I I do love a good paella.

SPEAKER_05: 31:35

Now this one has calamari, and it looks like it has a little bit of octopus in it as well.

SPEAKER_02: 31:40

There is a big, there's still a big tentacle back there.

SPEAKER_05: 31:43

Oh, is there? Yeah. Yeah, so I'm not I'm not gonna do that. But I'm gonna just slide that octopus right on over there to the side. It's probably great, but I'm not that grown. This is very delicious. And this is my first time ever having paella. And I love this wine.

SPEAKER_02: 32:00

Yeah, all the ones are really good. I'm like, mm-hmm. I'd get all of them.

SPEAKER_05: 32:03

I'm here for this. And I feel like such an adult with this particular wine. With the big glass, with a big glass. I like the big one. Like, I feel so grown up.

SPEAKER_03: 32:12

So you're you don't like the stem list, you like the big ones.

SPEAKER_05: 32:14

Yes.

unknown: 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 32:16

I'm feeling very Olivia Popeish. Oh, good. All we need is some popcorn.

SPEAKER_03: 32:21

So let's discuss the last and final question. Without the conviction, do you think Celestial and Roy would have gone the distance in their marriage? No. Nope. Nope.

SPEAKER_04: 32:32

Oh, that was easy. Nope, right? Nope. Because this is the thing. I think that Lex correctly stated, he was tripling like ghetto. Bruh. Oh, she tripling and ghetto. And ghetto.

SPEAKER_02: 32:43

Well, what did you think was ghetto about Roy? The minute you get out of jail, you're gonna hop on some random. And then be like, but try to pretend be not a f I'm trying not to cuss on the. And I definitely can't say those words together. But y'all know what I was about to say.

SPEAKER_03: 32:59

I definitely do. Be a S and I just felt like he was too insecure for me. He's the guy where she got successful, she's making more money, and then you're trying to find out how I made it happen. Because he's like, that was my idea. I'm the one that told her to do that. That all looks like me. Right. It was everything was like for me, it was he had lacked confidence. He had confidence, but he lacked it in certain areas because it was a always woe is me. I'm a black man with no money. How am I gonna make it? And now I'm with a woman with all this money. So that's where I felt like it was more about more than him cheating, getting girls' phone numbers. I think it was always gonna be an insecurity that he would never be enough for her and her family. Because he's always mentioned it throughout the whole book.

SPEAKER_04: 33:45

And I also will say, I don't think that she would have fully grown into herself and in her business, the way that she did. If he never went to jail and they and they just lived out their lives, he was always gonna be domineering over her. And she was one who was gonna fall back and just let life be what life is gonna be. So I do I I do not think it was a healthy relationship for her.

SPEAKER_05: 34:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 34:08

And so no, I I do not see that where they but I mean on one hand, I'm like, maybe I'm saying they should not have gone the distance, but I also kind of feel like she would have been there and she would have been like, hey, I'm I'm married, I'm just gonna go, whatever he's doing, he's doing, and I'm about to, I'm about to raise the kids, I'm about to be room mom, I'm doing all the stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 34:24

There was a lot of southern uh gender.

SPEAKER_04: 34:27

Maybe they maybe they would have gone the distance because I don't know that she would have left him. But I don't I do not think that she would have become her full self in that relationship long term.

SPEAKER_05: 34:38

She would have ended up having an affair with Dre, regardless. You think I absolutely do think so. Because he would have been, he would have continued to be there and be her shoulder to cry on when the next phone number that she found, or when Roy finally escalated to whatever, actually physically cheating, or God forbid, getting physical with her, like whatever, Dre would have continued to be there, waiting in the wings, lurking, and they would have ended up having an affair anyway, is what I think.

SPEAKER_02: 35:14

It was just a very complex situation altogether. Roy was not my favorite either.

SPEAKER_04: 35:21

I know the more I found out about him, at first I felt bad for him. I'm empathizing, but then the more I felt bad for him, the more I learned about him. I was like, bruh.

SPEAKER_05: 35:29

He's but no, so fair, right? He wasn't like the He wasn't Prince Charming. But regardless, he didn't deserve.

SPEAKER_02: 35:38

No, he didn't deserve to. No, he did not deserve that. But he still had some very trifling, like tendencies. Yes, like the fact that you slept with this girl unprotected. Girl, I might say con and then expect celestial to then sleep with you unprotected. Like it was two months. The girl, but the girl, but no, the girl who today's word is condom.

SPEAKER_03: 36:02

That's today's word.

SPEAKER_05: 36:03

Because at literally that's left with him unprotected. Like, girl, what is like you don't even know. Girl, five years is a long time. Like he might have You don't know what he did in that jail house. You don't know what he did in that jail house. Absolutely not. Like you just, and she knew. It wasn't like she didn't know. He like, girl, he just got out of jail. He was there for five years.

SPEAKER_02: 36:27

Like he just lied and cheated his way through this whole book. Even with his um, with the girl that he slept with, when she asked him about um celestial, his words. Her no, her son.

SPEAKER_03: 36:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 36:40

And he was like, no, I don't know him. Knowing that he was turned out in the prison. It's like, why are you cheating? Why are you lying? Why are you cheating? He was very gay. Let me say it was a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 36:54

He was 125, like reading about or hearing about like unprotected sex is out of control. Like it's insane. It is like what? What are y'all?

SPEAKER_03: 37:03

I read the book and I was just like condom. Yeah. Condom? Like I felt like a little parrot. Condom. That was me too. Like, it was just so unfight. I was like, Jade, this is just dangerous. Barry. Just all of it. I did empathize with Roy with certain things. Like he found out his father, his father was so full circle, like a very full circle moment. Um, so it was various things where I did empathize with him, but even if she would have stayed and he got out and they were together, I don't know how he would have had to go into a lot of therapy because a lot had transpired to him while he was in jail, processing that your mom died while you were in jail. Your real father was in there where your your other real father being in there was crazy.

SPEAKER_05: 37:48

That biological being in there was crazy. Crazy.

SPEAKER_03: 37:50

So I think he, I mean, I think a lot would have had to happen once he came home and if they were still together, because you know, he was aggressive. Like he said, I could just take it if I wanted to. And it was like, uh-uh. Like, I was like, I said no.

SPEAKER_05: 38:07

Don't do that. You got old girl. Like, don't take the don't break the like don't take the don't take the like don't do it. Don't do that. The little girl is right up the block. Like, you ain't gotta go there.

SPEAKER_04: 38:19

It was, yeah. I was very displayed. That was very disappointing. For me, the way I'm getting out of jail, I am going to find my wife. I'm getting her back. But on the way, I'm about to slide into a little something. Girl!

SPEAKER_01: 38:32

It was crazy. Girl, girl.

SPEAKER_05: 38:34

It was nasty. It was nasty. Like, let's just call it what it was. It was like that's nasty. That was nasty.

SPEAKER_03: 38:39

Yeah. And then you're gonna come home and be like, now open me with welcome arms. Like, just welcome me back in. Like, and then in my back of my head, and you did all of that, and she's supposed to be like, yeah, come on, babe. Yeah. And then no protection. Like, you're really, you're really like, yes. Yes, I'm saying. I don't know. Like, I'm like, it's not even a matter of trust. I'm sorry, dude. You've been gone for five plus years. Locked up. I've been gone for five plus years. If he was like, I want you to take a test, I'll be like, I might be mad, but guess what? I'll take that test. But you're surely getting a full panel, sir.

SPEAKER_02: 39:14

A full panel. That part.

SPEAKER_05: 39:16

Not a full. A full. It's so many things. Like, I feel like we need about three more questions. Yeah, because this only hit like because we did not even touch on. And obviously, we never want to give too much away.

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

And we gave.

SPEAKER_05: 39:31

We did gave. And there's we gave. And there's still so much like that we didn't, that we didn't get into. I want to know from you guys who I think that we're all kind of unanimous. Least favorite character. Because the storyline it was wild, right? Like there's the parents, there's the couple, there's the friend, there's the biological. There's a least favorite character.

SPEAKER_02: 39:57

Roy. Only because. The entitlement was crazy for me. I hate like that. Is the first way. And my and my fiance will tell you the first way to piss me off is a double standard. I hate that. And I feel like Roy felt like he was entitled to so much just because he was a man. And it's like, no. Should your wife held you down because y'all agreed to be married and all of this stuff? Yes. But also, like, you did your wrongs too. And so let's not forget what you did. And maybe this influences why she's acting the way she's acting now. Like, he just was not a good man overall. I would not characterize him as a good man. But his situation was sad. Like it was very sad and very traumatic. And it sucked. But that doesn't mean you get to suck as a person.

SPEAKER_05: 40:52

And I think that's the that was the conflict for me. It's like, dang, but sometimes karma, sometimes karma is karma, right? Like you're everywhere. Like that ain't right. Yeah. Black man, but my guy. But you ain't doing right. You wasn't right. Like before, like before this, you did all of these things. Like, was it karma or was it like, and that's the part that made it difficult, is because like I think, you know, obviously, we have black sons, we have black husbands, we have, you know, black cousins, but whatever, black fiances. And it's always black man, like, black man. I love you. No, I love you, black man. But my God. My God. You was doing dirt like before you before you got here. Yeah, and that's the part that makes it.

SPEAKER_03: 41:49

Even up until there, the night that everything happened, why would you divulge that secret to her about your dad? Yeah. That was the night. So y'all been married a year and a half, and that is the night you decide to tell her. Even even some of the secrets he was telling her. And the reason why I felt like they weren't gonna make it was because of the mama. The mama never liked her. Yeah. She never accepted her. And I feel like that's a sign for me. Because some moms are easy. Like some girl, girl, girl. Everybody always wanna blame the mama.

SPEAKER_05: 42:25

No, but like, listen, like we like to. She was nasty. Help me understand. She was nasty.

SPEAKER_03: 42:30

Help me understand. She because I feel like I feel like she knew something about Celestial, and I think it was because of the Andre situation. I knew that she, I think she knew that she didn't love her son the way that she needed her to love him. I honestly think that. So that's why I feel like it was never a good match.

SPEAKER_04: 42:48

She gave me one of those moms that just no one is gonna be good enough for my baby. That's the vibe I got from that.

SPEAKER_03: 42:53

No, because my mother-in-law gives me that, and when she when she fell in love with me, I was like, it was inevitable, Maddie. It was inevitable, girl. Like, it's forever. Like she loves me, but she was that I was fearful. Like when I met her, and I felt like I would get the vibes, like nobody's good enough for her son. But once she embraced me and she got to know me and she sees how I am with her son, even in the beginning, I'm not even gonna say what it is now, it was still a good relationship. You accepted me. And I felt like the mama never really accepted Celestia like that. It was always, it was always something. And I felt like she knew something all of us didn't know. And she was absolutely right.

SPEAKER_05: 43:31

But mamas be knowing. So let me let's listen. Let me just go on say your mama don't like her.

SPEAKER_03: 43:37

Now, if she's just a nasty person, she's just a nasty person, but right.

SPEAKER_05: 43:41

But if you have like there are moms out there that are, and I'm just gonna say, like, for me, we good until we not. And usually when we're not, it's because of something that you've done, something that you've said, something that you have shown me. And I'm like, hmm, but I will never, whatever choices my son makes, that's your life. Those are your choices. If you, if you choose to deal with it now, I can show you some pictures of what your life is gonna look like down the line. Like this, you know, when people show you who they are, right? But there was definitely something there. But I don't think it was, there are some moms that are like nobody is ever gonna be good enough, right? I don't think that that was the situation because her husband, like the commitment that they had to each other. I think it was like you're saying, Steph, like she knew that it wasn't that, the same way that the dad knew. And Celestial knew. Yeah, like they knew that it wasn't. There was a point where she was like, she knew she didn't have the appropriate love. I don't love him like that. I'm not gonna be out here digging like that. Like, yes. That broke my heart. That was dig in the cross. Yes. It's listen, it is a must-read. It's a lot, it's a lot. It is a lot short for sure. Yeah, and it's not even a thick book. So imagine, like, it was so much packaging. It was very happy.

SPEAKER_03: 45:07

It was I told my I told my husband, I was like, what would you do? Would you and I told I tried to give him a sub a synopsis? He's like, I would stay. I said, mm.

SPEAKER_01: 45:18

Okay. I said, well, I said, well, thank you, Jim.

SPEAKER_05: 45:23

Beth said that. Good answer. Any final thoughts? Any final words on that one before we we wrap it up? Like, it's we could go on for a couple hours. Because there's still so much in comments. We can't tell you the whole story. Just y'all read the book. Read the book. And chat back in with us. Please, like, tag us, message us, like, so let us know what you think.

SPEAKER_03: 45:46

Yeah, boy, Celestial Andre, who's your pick? Who's the pick? Because it was it was a lot.

SPEAKER_05: 45:51

But yeah, this is definitely, I will say, you know, even with the sip and the babysits, like it's it's a must-read. Like, and hopefully you understand why our ratings were what they were, right? Because it's like, oh, I'm I'm torn and so many words, but very, very good. Very good. It was. Before we close out, you know, you know the vibes. We always save some space for something to sit with, sip on, or carry into your week. A lit challenge to move you, a top for thought to ground you, or a memorable quote for the from the book that lingers like a good sip. This one is a gentle nudge. For hearts still healing and still hoping. Here's a top for thought. Some love stories don't break, they shift under pressure. Not everything that bends becomes a loss. Okay, right. And that's it for this episode of Black Girls Live Podcast, where fine women, fine literature, and fine libations always meet. We close with a toast to the words that found you, the poor that held you, and the version of you that showed up to listen. If it made you think, feel, or clink, pour it forward and make room for someone else at the table. And we'll be back next time with Long After We're Gone by Tara? Tarea?

SPEAKER_03: 47:08

Tiari.

SPEAKER_05: 47:09

Tahari. Tiari Shelton Harris. I don't think. Either one of y'all said that correctly. I don't think so either. But it's okay. So long after we're gone. Oh, the next book. Long after we're gone. Oh, that book. Cheers. Oops. Wait.

SPEAKER_00: 47:21

Why?

SPEAKER_01: 47:25

Whoops.

SPEAKER_03: 47:26

Bye, y'all.

SPEAKER_01: 47:30

Thank you for listening to the Black Girls Lip Podcast. Join us for our next pour and our next page, Long After We Are Gone, by Tara Shelton Harris. Make sure to like, subscribe, comment, and follow.